We arent saying 10RPM of slip is bad, what we are saying is that seems to be the progression point of going out. However, that clutch was used in a distinctly different way than was Packards. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. The knock sensor wire harness connector was loose. By contrast, a fluid clutch always slips at least a little. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. Multiple different problems, some transmission related, some engine related, all resulting in driveability issues. (These cookies are not usually set for administrative users, since comments they submit while logged in are associated with their user ID number and user profile information rather than a manually entered name and email address.). Unless you have tune that keeps the converter unlocked, the converter should've locked. Some electrical tape and some plastic wire loom may solve your issue entirely. Impeller Pump The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. Most street torque. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). If we have enabled multi-factor authentication (which requires an authentication code as well as a password to log into the administrative dashboard), the iThemes Security plugin may also set the itsec_interstitial_browser cookie during the login process. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. I just checked it yesterday and it was right at the full indicator with the transmission properly warmed up. abs thank you for posting your experience here. Some persist for only a few minutes, or until you close your browser (or other user agent); others may remain in your browser (or other user agent) as long as your individual settings permit. The torque converter of the future will have a carefully tuned control strategy, which takes into account the torque demands of each vehicle. Off.).) Ate Up With Motor, its logo, and other associated icons and graphics are trademarks and/or service marks of Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. Over 10 RPM is real slip. The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. Those gear ratios were in addition to the torque multiplication provided by the torque converter. For example, if engine speed is 2,500 rpm, the turbine might only turn 2,375 rpm: hydraulic slippage of 5%. Second, consider draining and filling the transmission a few times since you can't get all the fluid out with just one drain/fill cycle. Your IP: Your torque converter is full of fluid, and its jobis to act as a hydraulic pump and acts as a coupling between the engine and the transmission. Google, AdSense, Google AdSense, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Since the 1940s, automakers have come up with a variety of strategies for reducing or eliminating that slip, including series parallel split torque transmissions and different types of converter lockup clutches. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. Your email address will not be published. Dr. Tranny helped for a short time and then the car became entirely undriveable. There are several ways to arrange such a clutch, but the common object is to create a mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission input shaft (which otherwise is driven by the fluid clutchs turbine(s)). mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! They may persist for up to two years. We thought 10 was bad 2 years ago. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) (author diagram). Once governor pressure was sufficient to overcome the combined spring and throttle valve pressure, oil would be applied to the clutch cylinder, engaging the lockup clutch. 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Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Ford Flex Plugging it back in all the way and resetting the PCM took care of that problem. The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. For most hot street engines, converters in the 2,200 to 2,600-rpm range are considered streetable but will still require a very efficient trans cooler to keep them out of the heat zone. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. The trans temp was never above 160 degrees. Estimate Converter Slip. The turbine and lockup clutch driven plate are both splined to the transmission input shaft (medium blue). works great no real problems. I always thought it wasn't supposed to go over 10. Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. 1. and 2. Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. A manufacturer's torque-converter rating is generally expressed as an rpm range. Torque Converter Slip Measurement / Diagnosis | Ford Explorer - Ford Stator The stator is called the middleman. This very similar to what I experienced with my failure. by Silver Flex SEL. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. A flyweight 2,800-pound car like an early Mustang or Chevy II could use less multiplication to successfully launch on their relatively smaller rear tires. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. Most street torque converters tend to operate in the 3 to 5 percent slippage range, but this can go as high as 8 percent. This viscous connection is transmission fluid. The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. Heat is the enemy of any automatic transmission and will radically reduce its life span if not mediated by an efficient trans cooler. To fix the problem, you need to discover the seal that's damaged and have it replaced. In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM - copyright 2023 AAMCO transmissions inc. but my truck has 25k on it and 10k tuned.. so im thinking mines not on the way out and its got 20rpm slip. would it work,yet throw out aod default codes. For all the administrative and login cookies described here, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash while "UID" will be the administrative user's user ID number in this website's WordPress database. Gears Magazine - Nag 1/722.6 P0741 TCC Slip It does drove different than a lock up. Its free and only takes a minute, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. (Until late 1954, the transmissions planetary gearset always remain in direct drive unless the driver manually selected Low.) In Drive, the direct clutch is engaged and both bands are released, causing the input sun gear, the low sun gear (orange), the planet carrier and output shaft (light green) to turn at input shaft speed. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. I checked for codes and had none that explained why it happened. Wallace Racing - Converter Slip Calculator Hydraulic slippage is much less desirable at cruising speed. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. Torque Converter slippage | PowerStrokeArmy The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. Almost no one thinks of it, but when you drive your automatic transmission car, you're master over your cars torque converter. Twice last week, when I came up to a stop light, the engine bogged down to 400rpm then recovered back to normal idle. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue. To learn more about how Google may use information collected by the Google Analytics service, see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, and the Google Privacy Policy. It's when you have a damaged torque converter seal that fluid leaks out and causes the overheating and damage. Post If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. check out the. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. Advertising - However, such a lockup clutch cant remain locked all the time. The cookieconsent_status cookie recorded whether or not you consented to analytics tracking and told the website to hide the notification banner; this cookie normally expires after about one year. As an example, replace your spark plugs if they are original, replace air filter, replace PCV valve. Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. what is the protocol using AE to diagnosis torque slip. Embedded video players for content hosted on the YouTube video platform (which is owned by Google LLC) may set these third-party cookies and/or use similar technologies to store data in your browser (or other user agent) for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings (e.g., tailoring the playback to your connection speed), storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), showing you advertisements, associating your video viewing and other activity with your Google account (if any), ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The clutch plate itself, which was faced on both sides with cork, was splined at its hub to the transmission input shaft. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. The usual strategy is to disengage the clutch at idle (or just off idle) and during acceleration and then then engage the clutch for cruising. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. This is why a disc clutch must be disengaged or the transmission shifted to neutral whenever the vehicle stops. Reach out to your local AAMCO transmission center when youre ready for your efficient, smooth and worry-free ride. Torque converter clutch slip Scan tool values 99 GMC Pickup GM's 6L80 HP Tuning, DoD, and Torque Converters! But this shuttering is not caused by a disease. Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. . If the engine isnt free to turn faster than the driveshaft at rest or extremely low speeds, the engine will stall! The information below will outline the most common torque converter issues and their solutions. I've got reason to believe my torque converter is going out, which readings can I look at to determine if that's actually my problem? I think you probably have some time as long as you dont pound on it. Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Change Background Color (Note: This option sets cookies on your device to manage your color settings; see the Cookie Notice for details.). In first and second gears, the converter turbine drove the front annulus (ring gear). To learn more about what information the Vimeo platform collects and how that information may be used, see the Vimeo Privacy Policy. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. 51.91.16.67 The action you just performed triggered the security solution. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. The effective dates of the current versions are: Paid advertisements and/or sponsored links on Ate Up With Motor will be identified with words such as "Sponsor," "Sponsors," "Sponsored Link(s)," "Sponsored Content," "Ad," "Advertisement," "Advertisement(s)," or "Paid Promotion" (and/or by images or icons containing such words). For comparison, a four-speed Wilson pre-selector has four planetary gearsets, four sets of brake bands, and a cone clutch, which is a lot of pieces. In the diagram above, the yellow arrow again illustrates the flow of power, this time in third (top) gear. The mount on the transmission side (under the battery) was severely damaged, the rubber legs inside the bushing were torn through and was allowing a lot of engine movement. by SirHandyMan Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:52 pm, Post All engine power flows through the mechanical clutch directly to the input shaft. The one-way stator clutch (fuchsia) allows the stator (light blue) to freewheel in the direction of engine rotation, but reverse rotation locks the stator against the fixed stator shaft (dark gray), providing torque multiplication under some conditions. Your IP: Primary symptom includes a "rumble strip" like sound randomly while driving at speeds of about 40+. On early Ultramatic-equipped Packards, the lockup clutch would not engage until road speed reached at least 15 mph (24 km/h) even on a light throttle. if you dont hammer on it everyday it will last you a long time.. my stock converter had 350 rpms of slip on the 310 tune and the truck still had all kinds of power even locked. If you use the buttons to make a payment or donation, the PayPal services will set additional cookies (not listed here) to manage your PayPal login and transaction data (and potentially also for various other purposes, e.g., user analytics and/or advertising). If you change certain aspects of the site's appearance using the accessibility sidebar, it may set these cookies to manage and remember your settings. A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. Only lasts from .5 seconds to 2 seconds. Anyway, I downloaded FORscan on my laptop and loaded several pids for the transmission. Do you want them slipping when driving? By changing the angle of the impeller blades, the torque-converter manufacturer can create a converter that generates a given stall speed with a certain torque multiplication. 10r80 Cars on the Dyno - TCC lock S or D - Mustang6G However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. Such cookies and/or stored data items may be set by various domains (such as, though not necessarily limited to, youtube.com; youtube-nocookie.com; googlevideo.com; ytimg.com; google.com; accounts.google.com; www.googleadservices.com; and/or doubleclick.net, which is part of the DoubleClick advertising service, also owned by Google LLC). check trans fluid. If you delete or disable these cookies, your existing preferences will be lost and you may not be able to save your privacy settings for this website. sir im having an issue with my 93 f150 aod. the only readings i got was for all the electronically controlled aod. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. The confusion stems from the symptoms of a failing transmission, and a failing torque converter is very similar and linked. Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. .. makes you appreciate the thought and consideration that goes into EFILive if only we could clone the boys (and girls) of EFILive, imagine a Delphi Ross and Bosch Ross, By WS600 in forum General (Petrol, Gas, Ethanol), By Bradazz in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), By joecar in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87), http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.012-T43-Tables, If this is your first visit, be sure to Torque Converter Clutch Low Slip Speed Detection and Control Now that we have DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website, this cookie no longer functions no additional analytics data will be collected, with or without the cookie. It is the lack of fluid that causes overheating, slipping, or shuddering. In second, the low band was released and the multi-disc clutch engaged, causing both ring gears to rotate at turbine speed. Torque Converters - Unlocking The Secrets - Car Craft Magazine - MotorTrend If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. It's all about creating an overall tuned package that complements the rest of your car. In the early Studebaker Automatic Drive (Borg-Warner DG) transmission, the flywheel drives the torque converter impeller, front pump, and lockup clutch pressure plate (red). Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. For more information, please see our Torque converter problems have a high impact on your car's ability to function and drive. Comments may be moderated. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. (not Diameter) At some point Ford modified the wiring to include a thick rubber insulator on the wires that extended beyond the edge of the intake manifold to prevent the chaffing. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. Because of the lack of traction and limited tires, it's not critical that a street engine launch at peak-torque rpm. Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b2fd769016 As you can see I was experiencing multiple issues, all of which were exacerbating the clutch slippage and/or shuddering issue. This sounds really great, and it is. Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b42f522a79 Click to reveal I don't think they had this in 2011 however. Many of the other listed cookies are associated with the Google Analytics service, the Google AdSense advertising service, and/or other Google advertising and measurement products, which are subject to the Google Privacy Policy; see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site, and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of the Google Business Data Responsibility site (which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products) for more information. Opening the throttle further could delay engagement to a maximum of 56 mph (90 km/h). A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. It is not common for the knock sensors to fail, especially at such a low mileage. These a11y cookies normally expire after about seven days, but are removed immediately if you restore the applicable settings to their default values. A lot of bad things can happen to your car when the torque converter starts failing. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). You are using an out of date browser. Giving Slip the Slip: Lockup Torque Converters and Split Torque AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. Its job is to smoothly convert engine torque into hydraulic pressure that your transmission uses to engage and shift gears. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -. (For more information about our discontinuation of Google Analytics tracking on this website, see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy. This created the demand for a lockup converter employing an internal clutch inside the converter to directly connect the turbine with the input shaft of the transmission just like a manual-transmission clutch. All other trademarks and/or service marks are the property of their respective owners. ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. (For this cookie, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) Your Transmission Fluid is Contaminated. Introduced for the 1950 model year, Studebakers Automatic Drive was developed in partnership with Borg-Warner and was more broadly known as the DG series, after the Borg-Warner Detroit Gear Division that did much of the development work.
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